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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>proposals, rethinking slightly · t-lang · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/index.html">t-lang</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html">proposals, rethinking slightly</a></h3>

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<a name="204478942"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204478942" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204478942">(Jul 20 2020 at 21:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>So  I was talking to <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> -- I've been having some mild "rethink" of the idea of lang-team MCPs. It's not that I think the core ideas are wrong, but that I'm thinking it's maybe starting a bit from the wrong end. That we might be better off working through some of our existing "debt", in the form of </p>
<ul>
<li>working through the existing tracking issues and trying to categorize them somewhat into "stages"</li>
<li>going through the pending RFCs and existing project groups</li>
<li>investing how we can better visualize the status of each effort, something more like <a href="https://apple.github.io/swift-evolution/">the swift dashboard</a> or the <a href="https://github.com/tc39/proposals#ecmascript-proposals">TC39 proposal listing</a></li>
</ul>
<p>I'd like to get to the point where we have a kind of Quality of Service guarantee from the lang team, that when you open an RFC we are able to respond quickly and bucket it into one of various options.</p>



<a name="204479690"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204479690" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204479690">(Jul 20 2020 at 21:40)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> and I were thinking of starting by making some meetings to start working through the categorization backlog and encouraging folks to join if they wish. Maybe this week? I'd like to get started.</p>



<a name="204488244"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204488244" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204488244">(Jul 20 2020 at 21:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly/near/204478942">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I'd like to get to the point where we have a kind of Quality of Service guarantee from the lang team, that when you open an RFC we are able to respond quickly and bucket it into one of various options.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>To elaborate a bit more on this, I'm having doubts about the wisdom of separating out things into the lang-team repo. I worry it's getting more opaque and less transparent, which is not the goal. </p>
<p>An alternative might be to use RFCs as we ever have, but just make it clearer that a typical outcome from an RFC is to create a project group dedicated to seeing the thing through (and we could keep the "current option" of accepting RFCs with no plan to implement, though I'd like to maybe put some time limits on how long we'll let stuff like that stay open).</p>
<p>We might then introduce a "Stage 0" or "Charter" RFC that is more oriented around the motivation and less focused on a specific proposal, and push folks to use that (either initially or to edit an RFC that seems to have gone to far down the "solution" direction).</p>



<a name="204489522"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204489522" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204489522">(Jul 20 2020 at 22:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd avoid the name RFC for a project group charter</p>



<a name="204489701"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204489701" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204489701">(Jul 20 2020 at 22:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>When an RFC is completed, people in the wider world outside the project should see a clear difference in something to do with rust (lang, libs, compiler flags, cargo, whatever).</p>
<p>If it's a project group charter, it should be called something other than RFC. You could even just call it a project group charter.</p>



<a name="204704234"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204704234" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204704234">(Jul 22 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>When an RFC is completed, people in the wider world outside the project should see a clear difference in something to do with rust (lang, libs, compiler flags, cargo, whatever).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>But this is clearly not true today, right? when an rfc is merged, nothing changes in the external state of the project, it just "ungates" the ability to land implementation code.</p>



<a name="204704297"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204704297" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204704297">(Jul 22 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>It seems like an RFC is, well, a request for folks to comment on a decision being made. The change when an RFC lands is that we have decided to work on a feature. This is also true of a project group charter, though it's more that we've decided we will explore X.</p>



<a name="204704423"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204704423" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204704423">(Jul 22 2020 at 18:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>Officially, when we've accepted a lang RFC, the definition of the language has changed (and the compiler needs updating to implement the new feature). But that may be an unnecessary semantic quibble.</p>



<a name="204761994"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204761994" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204761994">(Jul 23 2020 at 05:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>By completed, I suppose I don't mean just "accepted and merged". I meant "the tracker issue of action items the RFC proposes has closed because they've all been fully enacted".</p>
<p>With an RFC to make a group that will <em>then</em> eventually (maybe) make another RFC to do something someday, you lose the PR momentum.</p>



<a name="204837258"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837258" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837258">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like a RFC to make a group is probably overkill</p>



<a name="204837335"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837335" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837335">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think probably an "FCP" is appropriate-ish</p>



<a name="204837343"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837343" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837343">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe an IntoRust blog post too :)</p>



<a name="204837392"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837392" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837392">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I do think there is some point where we are "comitting" to solve a problem</p>



<a name="204837401"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837401" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837401">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>and that is meaningful</p>



<a name="204837416"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837416" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837416">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>that <em>feels</em> like an RFC to me</p>



<a name="204837506"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837506" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837506">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>in a way, It hink <em>that discussion</em> is actually the one we want public feedback on</p>



<a name="204837524"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837524" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837524">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, I don't know how true I think tha tis :)</p>



<a name="204837551"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837551" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837551">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>I mean we do, but I'm not sure where's the best time fo rit,</p>



<a name="204837565"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837565" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837565">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I guess my main point is</p>



<a name="204837673"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837673" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837673">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I want to separate out as much as I can the "do we want to solve this problem" -- hmm, actually, I'm rethinking this</p>



<a name="204837684"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837684" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837684">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I tink there are three levels</p>



<a name="204837706"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837706" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837706">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:44)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>what problem to solve?</li>
<li>the "high-level summary" of how to solve it</li>
<li>the details</li>
</ul>



<a name="204837776"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837776" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837776">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think project group creation is committing not to solving a problem but rather is saying "The X team believes this problem is important to look at, and to explore potential solutions to." The RFC(s) that come out of that are were the commitment to solution(s) happens -- and I think a reasonable response to a solution might be "Hey, you have not explored all the alternatives to this, and I think the project group should explore alternative Z and document reasons why the chosen solution is better than Z"</p>



<a name="204837780"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837780" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837780">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the RFC process as practiced today mixes all 3 of those</p>



<a name="204837814"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837814" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837814">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, that was kind of what I was working my way towards</p>



<a name="204837835"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837835" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837835">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, I think I agree with that</p>



<a name="204837912"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837912" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837912">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>And, IMO, it is fully up to the team where the team choses to devote its time, modulo roadmap planning (i.e., steering council / core team guidance)</p>



<a name="204837923"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837923" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837923">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>although I do think</p>



<a name="204837945"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837945" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837945">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I mean ultimately everything is up to the team :)</p>



<a name="204837985"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204837985" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204837985">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I do think input on what would be a good problem to solve is important, though I don't think an RFC thread is a good or reasonable way to get that input</p>



<a name="204838036"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838036" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838036">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>Sure. I guess I mean that the RFC process implies sort of "fine tuned debate" today, whereas here there's not really much choice, in some sense</p>



<a name="204838044"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838044" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838044">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>discussion threads in general would be <em>one</em> useful way, but certainly not the sole way or even the best way</p>



<a name="204838062"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838062" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838062">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not sure</p>



<a name="204838075"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838075" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838075">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think there's a lot of choice?</p>



<a name="204838089"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838089" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838089">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe I don't understand what you mean</p>



<a name="204838092"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838092" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838092">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>like, I think if people wanted to say "but no you should be spending time on feature Z instead of this" they can't do that by complaining on the RFC</p>



<a name="204838093"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838093" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838093">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>but there are a lot of things we <em>might</em> spend time on...</p>



<a name="204838109"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838109" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838109">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I see</p>



<a name="204838116"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838116" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838116">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, they can :)</p>



<a name="204838119"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838119" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838119">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>and they do :)</p>



<a name="204838133"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838133" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838133">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>well they shouldn't, I guess -- that's not productive</p>



<a name="204838137"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838137" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838137">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>but it's the wrong starting point</p>



<a name="204838191"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838191" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838191">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>I remember thinking that if we were going to have those choices, I wanted them to be more of the form of</p>



<a name="204838204"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838204" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838204">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>here is a menu of choics -- now argue <em>positively for something</em></p>



<a name="204838209"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838209" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838209">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>and not <em>negatively against something</em></p>



<a name="204838225"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838225" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838225">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, I'd be for that</p>



<a name="204838228"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838228" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838228">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>an RFC doesn't really give you that option</p>



<a name="204838243"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838243" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838243">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>and it certainly doesn't incentivize it</p>



<a name="204838294"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838294" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838294">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, this was helpful :)</p>



<a name="204838311"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838311" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838311">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>That's basically what I'm getting at -- the community's feedback on whether to do A B or C is valuable, but suggesting D when the lang team doesn't want to spend time on D is not very helpful.</p>



<a name="204838314"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838314" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838314">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>I have to find a wy to keep beter notes ;)</p>



<a name="204838325"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838325" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838325">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like I am re-discovering things</p>



<a name="204838336"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838336" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838336">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>If you want to push people towards D, go post a blog post and try and gather community "energy" around that!</p>



<a name="204838338"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838338" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838338">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>that I kind of already had come to but then forget</p>



<a name="204838344"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838344" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838344">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway, that reminds me, I want to do the first of the triage meetings tomorrow</p>



<a name="204838355"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838355" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838355">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was going to ping you <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> to ask about your time constraints :)</p>



<a name="204838368"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838368" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838368">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>well let me find a time that <em>I</em> like first :P</p>



<a name="204838450"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838450" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838450">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can't do 11-2pm Eastern but am otherwise flexible :)</p>



<a name="204838478"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838478" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838478">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>how does this new zulip time feature work :)</p>



<a name="204838490"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838490" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838490">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>do I have to do a fully explicit ISO date or something</p>



<a name="204838527"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838527" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838527">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><time datetime="2020-07-31T18:00:00Z">2020-07-31T14:00:00-04:00</time></p>



<a name="204838530"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838530" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838530">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh wow, it's interactive</p>



<a name="204838557"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838557" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838557">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>that's actually really cool :)</p>



<a name="204838722"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838722" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838722">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>So <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> and others: I am thinking of doing the "first of many" triage sessions at <time datetime="2020-07-24T18:00:00Z">2020-07-24T14:00:00-04:00</time> -- the idea is to start going and categorizing a bit the outstanding RFCs and open tracking issues. You don't have to attend, we'll summarize the results in the main triage meeting as we go probably. I think this will be useful but also useful to informing a bit the questions around process that we've been considering.</p>



<a name="204838821"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838821" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838821">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am still feeling kind of "confused" about whether I think the MCP process is "right" in the way I proposed it, I was tilting a bit away and thinking that it moved a bit too much from how things work today, but now I'm re-re-thinking that</p>



<a name="204838843"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838843" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838843">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>I should try to write out some of these thoughts again</p>



<a name="204838941"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838941" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838941">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>Anyway anyone who wants an invite to the triage meeting, I'm adding it to he lang-team calendar</p>



<a name="204838955"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838955" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838955">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>I should find another name</p>



<a name="204838968"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204838968" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204838968">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would appreciate that.</p>



<a name="204839060"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204839060" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204839060">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:55)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&amp;tmeid=MmxwcWIxZWhhZ3JvdHVkOXB1dGNsbmo1azYgcmVjdWQ0YjlvOGNtYzBtNXJtcjAzM3A1bmtAZw&amp;tmsrc=recud4b9o8cmc0m5rmr033p5nk%40group.calendar.google.com">Backlog Bonanza, Part 1</a></p>



<a name="204839270"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204839270" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204839270">(Jul 23 2020 at 18:57)</a>:</h4>
<p><span aria-label="heart" class="emoji emoji-2764" role="img" title="heart">:heart:</span> thanks!</p>



<a name="204840524"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204840524" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204840524">(Jul 23 2020 at 19:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>Nice name. :)</p>



<a name="204840671"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204840671" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204840671">(Jul 23 2020 at 19:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>Regarding the types of feedback: I agree that "we should do D instead" when the lang team has already considered D is not productive. "What about E" when nobody has considered E yet might be productive, but it's a bit of a process failure that we didn't discover E earlier in the process.</p>



<a name="204840736"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204840736" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204840736">(Jul 23 2020 at 19:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>Also, there would be a very high bar for "we shouldn't do this at all" at a later phase, but not an impossible bar if there's some new argument that wasn't considered earlier, but again, that's a process failure.</p>



<a name="204843718"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204843718" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204843718">(Jul 23 2020 at 19:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>I personally think sending that kind of feedback through other channels is the right way to go about things</p>



<a name="204845238"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204845238" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Jane Lusby <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204845238">(Jul 23 2020 at 19:46)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly/near/204837258">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I feel like a RFC to make a group is probably overkill</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I guess I should have checked zulip before I openned this PR, ahaha <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2965">https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2965</a></p>



<a name="204871993"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204871993" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204871993">(Jul 24 2020 at 01:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>Always putting the meetings so early in the day, I cannot attend I'm afraid</p>



<a name="204947555"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947555" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947555">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Oh hey folks</p>



<a name="204947568"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947568" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947568">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>I forgot to create a zoom room</p>



<a name="204947574"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947574" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947574">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="204947579"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947579" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947579">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll create the link and send to whomever requests</p>



<a name="204947590"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947590" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947590">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I'm trying to avoid posting zoom links in logged forums anymore :P)</p>



<a name="204947618"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947618" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947618">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Maybe add to calendar?)</p>



<a name="204947721"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947721" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947721">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah, ok, done</p>



<a name="204947772"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204947772" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204947772">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ah, Zoom? I had thought it'd be Zulip. Switching to my Zoom setup...</p>



<a name="204948100"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/204948100" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#204948100">(Jul 24 2020 at 18:05)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Backlog-bonanza--A4b1MXnFfnbsFaJSUNGuUvg0Ag-2IcACiM0KX1up1thIeiWh">paper document for notes</a>, but we'll also post into the stream or in the rfcs/issues themselves perhaps</p>



<a name="205162111"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205162111" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205162111">(Jul 27 2020 at 20:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>idea: s/Major Change Proposal/Project Proposal/?</p>
<p>also s/Project Group/Project/ :)</p>



<a name="205162156"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205162156" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205162156">(Jul 27 2020 at 20:06)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> <span aria-label="point up" class="emoji emoji-1f446" role="img" title="point up">:point_up:</span></p>



<a name="205162175"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205162175" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205162175">(Jul 27 2020 at 20:06)</a>:</h4>
<p><span aria-label="+1" class="emoji emoji-1f44d" role="img" title="+1">:+1:</span></p>



<a name="205162206"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205162206" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205162206">(Jul 27 2020 at 20:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Not the best abbreviation though.)</p>



<a name="205163937"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205163937" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205163937">(Jul 27 2020 at 20:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>If we want good abbreviated terms, how about a <strong>"Lang Proposal"</strong> that (if liason'd) leads to an <strong>"Exploratory Project"</strong>, which does all the bikeshed and debate (everyone is invited of course), possibly <em>including</em> exploratory implementations of a concept within Nightly, and eventually the EP leads to the <strong>"Request For Comment"</strong> cycle we're all familiar with, the more-public documentation of the plan, and which leads the Rust Project on a path to some sort of new stabilization.</p>



<a name="205167175"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205167175" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205167175">(Jul 27 2020 at 20:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>Those...are not bad names for the phases indeed :)</p>



<a name="205169321"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205169321" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205169321">(Jul 27 2020 at 21:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>Now I'm tempted to use a record-player icon for the LP and EP projects. ;)</p>



<a name="205170939"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205170939" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205170939">(Jul 27 2020 at 21:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like I want to update the <a href="http://lang-team.rust-lang.org">lang-team.rust-lang.org</a> page</p>



<a name="205170956"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205170956" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205170956">(Jul 27 2020 at 21:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>to include both the "current priorities" hackmd</p>



<a name="205170967"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205170967" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205170967">(Jul 27 2020 at 21:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>and this new phase system</p>



<a name="205279445"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279445" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279445">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>Here is a <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/pull/39">proposed charter template</a> -- cc <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="224471">@Lokathor</span> and <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span></p>



<a name="205279459"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279459" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279459">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not sure if including "initial folks" makes sense, though it seems ok</p>



<a name="205279473"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279473" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279473">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>but that seems like something that might evolve a lot too</p>



<a name="205279511"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279511" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279511">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like we could give a <em>bit</em> more structure, but I also simultaneously feel that maybe it should match the MCP template more-or-less exactly</p>



<a name="205279543"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279543" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279543">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe even exactly :)</p>



<a name="205279638"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279638" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279638">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>though at that point, this kind of circles back to the idea of "if there is going to be a PR, what is the point of the <em>issue</em> in the first place?"</p>



<a name="205279708"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279708" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279708">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>(i.e, maybe the "project group proposal" should itself be a PR adding a new charter, and we can decide whether to approve it or not)</p>



<a name="205279712"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279712" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279712">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>Seems simple enough. Keeping the "paperwork" lite is probably a benefit all on its own.</p>



<a name="205279740"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279740" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279740">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>or alternatively we could just ask people to update the issue text with any new things from the discussion</p>



<a name="205279761"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279761" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279761">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I can just copy from there to create the project group issue (or even repurpose it...)</p>



<a name="205279791"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279791" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279791">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:29)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="224471">Lokathor</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly/near/205279712">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Seems simple enough. Keeping the "paperwork" lite is probably a benefit all on its own.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yes, I really don't want this to be a drag, and honestly it's seeming like a bit more "paperwork" right now than I would like</p>



<a name="205279909"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279909" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279909">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think issues are best because not all proposals need to be a project group</p>



<a name="205279936"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205279936" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205279936">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah, that's a good point, and I like how lightweight it feels to file one</p>



<a name="205280015"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205280015" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205280015">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>well I guess that as long as the template is basically the same as the MCP template then the "create a project group charter" is not actually a very difficult step</p>



<a name="205280710"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205280710" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205280710">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, I updated it to match the MCP template</p>



<a name="205280715"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205280715" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205280715">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>let's "just try it"</p>



<a name="205281283"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205281283" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205281283">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>Nike Yoda says: "just do it, or just do it not, there is no just try it".</p>



<a name="205281710"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205281710" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205281710">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am also declaring per fiat that we are going to incorporate responding to MCPs into our triage procss and try to respond promptly, within a week or two</p>



<a name="205281750"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205281750" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205281750">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it's fine if that response is basically "we're looking to see if we can find a liaison here", but we should then really try and close it if we can't</p>



<a name="205282112"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205282112" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205282112">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>one thing I was thinking:</p>



<a name="205282117"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205282117" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205282117">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that ideally the website would list our current priorities</p>



<a name="205282133"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205282133" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205282133">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>and the template would ask people to identify priorities that this idea fits under</p>



<a name="205282216"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205282216" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205282216">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>these are our <a href="https://hackmd.io/Czx3MwkpQeiC2_e9XI8OIw">current priorities</a></p>



<a name="205282241"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205282241" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205282241">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>fairly broad,  and  It hink idealy they'd also have lang team members associated with them</p>



<a name="205282260"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205282260" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205282260">(Jul 28 2020 at 19:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>but still a good start</p>



<a name="205286270"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205286270" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205286270">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>ah I remember the other thing that I thought might be a good fit for templates, something about stakeholders who ought to be included in the conversation</p>



<a name="205287804"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205287804" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205287804">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>That list is so broad i can hardly think of things that <em>don't</em> fit there somewhere</p>



<a name="205287939"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205287939" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205287939">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>And in a sense that's fine because we should always be opening to thinking about improving all of the language all the time, but it feels a little odd to call them "priorities" is all</p>



<a name="205287998"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205287998" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205287998">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that's fine</p>



<a name="205288006"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288006" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288006">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, I pushed up a bunch  of new content</p>



<a name="205288018"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288018" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288018">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>So, the reason that I think it's fine is that</p>



<a name="205288031"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288031" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288031">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the act of <em>relating</em> to a priority</p>



<a name="205288048"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288048" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288048">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>will also yield useful info</p>



<a name="205288091"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288091" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288091">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>that is, it's not about <em>whether</em> it can be related to a priority, it's about <em>how well</em> it can be</p>



<a name="205288122"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288122" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288122">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway, I also hope that we will refine that list a bit later on :)</p>



<a name="205288149"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288149" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288149">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>it might also be about "how many things do we have that relate to priority X"</p>



<a name="205288277"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288277" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288277">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/pull/39">https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/pull/39</a> is now a pretty big revamp</p>



<a name="205288316"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288316" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288316">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I'm kind of happy-ish with it</p>



<a name="205288350"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288350" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288350">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>took way longer than I thought it should but whatever</p>



<a name="205288408"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288408" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288408">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>along the way I changed from "MCP" to "project proposal"</p>



<a name="205288590"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205288590" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205288590">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I identified these phases:</p>
<ul>
<li>Exploration -- authoring the RFC, potentially implementing</li>
<li>RFC -- proposing RFC and getting broader feedback from community</li>
<li>Implementation -- implementing, if not done already</li>
<li>Evaluation -- getting feedback on the implementation</li>
<li>Stabilization --</li>
</ul>



<a name="205289014"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205289014" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205289014">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>personally, i would like to see rust have a "numeric tower" of generics so that we can also have generics that use literals</p>



<a name="205289060"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205289060" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205289060">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>but that's probably ambitious for 2021, could be done by 2024 I'm sure</p>



<a name="205289415"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205289415" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lcnr <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205289415">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:52)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>"numeric tower" of generics </p>
</blockquote>
<p>that sounds related to const generics. If you can please elaborate this in separate thread this or just pm me directly here <span aria-label="laughter tears" class="emoji emoji-1f602" role="img" title="laughter tears">:laughter_tears:</span></p>



<a name="205289927"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals%2C%20rethinking%20slightly/near/205289927" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/proposals.2C.20rethinking.20slightly.html#205289927">(Jul 28 2020 at 20:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>I merged the PR, so you can see the new content at <a href="https://lang-team.rust-lang.org/">https://lang-team.rust-lang.org/</a></p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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